Newsvine Groups V2

I felt a disturbance in the force! ;)

More thoughts:

- Ad revenue from group-published material can be divided up by the contributors or split up according to whatever mechanism the group specifies. If the owner wants to keep 20% of all group article revenue, that should be the owner prerogative in exchange for keeping the group running. This would also enable groups to "hire" a "staff" of writers and then generate exclusive content by and for that group. This goes back to the idea of Newsvine as Medium that I was begging for 3 years ago. (Holy @!$%# three years ago?!)

- I'd like better member management. I run the community group and if someone is spamming politics articles into that group and I want to remove them I have to go through all 1000+ members one page at a time to find that name. @!$%# that - give me the option to remove a user right next to the option to remove a post from the group.

- Auto-accept of new members is a great idea, as is auto-mail of all members. Make that opt-in on the part of a joining user, but allow group founders to require members to accept auto-mail if that's relevant to the group.

- I'd like the ability to customize the group page more. I want to be able to brand it a bit, change the color scheme, post group rules etc in some prominent place, etc etc etc. Basically, give us the option to create custom modules and position them in various locations on the group page.

- I reiterate and beg: give me a global user option to make a specific group's comment threads my default comment view on newsvine. I still love this site but the vast majority of comments at this point are completely stupid. If you give us a feature like this, users who enjoy each others' company can easily create a community that layers on top of your existing community by means of a nondestructive mechanism that would have no effect on anyone else. It's a Win!

- though I appreciate the alpha-sorting on the groups list after way too long of that being gibberish, let's kick it up a notch: let me sort my publish-to list of groups into a configuration that makes sense to me. It's still a pain to scroll through the whole thing when I need my most common groups, etc. Give us horizontal rules and header tags if you really love us, then we can populate the list however we want.

- for @!$%#'s sake, hire me already.

- I'd like the ability to post a brief introductory video to my groups. It's a bit more personal than just some text that people will skim, and it will give the more creative users a place to put some really interesting, unique content. Each group gets a 60-second slot which can be an introduction to the group, a short commercial or just some sort of creative expression. Hell, give groups the ability to publish video already, we all know you can do it.

Hell, give users the ability to publish video. I'll even code up your flash player with swank newsvine skins and everything!

Also, while I'm thinking about expanded media publication, give groups the idea to publish a podcast. You already allow XML feeds, I know you support user audio even though that's not rolled out - I think if you

A) give us the collaborative tools I mention above, including distributed ad revenue

and

B) give us the ability to upload .mp3 files and an .xml feed

Then you'll get a lot of interesting content.

As someone who administers a lot of groups, a front-page module that alerts me of any pending group requests and lets me approve them right from that panel would be a real timesaver.

Again, I could code that up for you in Flash in a jiffy if you expose the required API calls. :)

B) give us the ability to upload .mp3 files and an .xml feed

In this spirit, how about embedded video?

I'd like the ability to customize the group page more. I want to be able to brand it a bit, change the color scheme

Don't do that. The last thing we need is newsvine to become myspace.

Hmm - I'm just realizing I didn't comment the way you wanted. Calvin, do you want me to repost each bullet as its own comment?

Mykola, I was actually going to suggest that to you. As I strongly agree with some of your suggestions, and others, well, not so much. :)

OK, going to re-post each of these below as an independent parent comment. When I'm done, C, you can delete this subthread if you like. :)

Swap Moderator and Contributor positions/roles.

Can I ask what may be be seen as a dumb question by some. Calvin has asked for feedback / suggestions; why are people voting comments up, or worse making social comments not associated with either the intent of this post or the management thereof?

In that vein, why do you think that adding all the bandwidth hog content to groups will make the general content of newsvine better?

This goes back to what is the definition of a group? Is it a group of people with a special interest shared only by a part of the whole or is it an elite with elite features not shared by the general rabble? Why do you feel these features would not be better placed in the general use?

And, no thank you. No facebook clone. I thought the idea was to get smarter here, not cheesier

You've managed to stumble upon the heart of the discussion - what is a group? How do we define a group? What do we want groups to be?

I'm trying to present a unified case of groups as publishing platforms that exist as quasi-autonomous entities within the newsvine infrastructure. Please feel free to engage with the various components involved in my proposition, below, or propose your own vision. If you want to do away with groups altogether, as it sounds like you do, I wish you luck - I don't think that's an agenda item, but you should probably feel free to state your case - not just wax obnoxious about the way other people are choosing to communicate on the subject.

That's just my opinion, though.

what is a group?

A group [Matt Geeks] is a set [Math], with an operation [NV participation, or <NVp>] that acts on any two elements: x [article] and y [Extremist Moderate] to create another element: x<NVp>y [comment].

A set and operation, (Math, <NVp>), have four requirements they must satisfy to formally be established as a group. These requirements, or axioms for a group, are:

1. Closure - For all x,y in Math Geeks, results from operation <NVp> are also in Math Geeks.
2. Associativity - For all x, y and z in Math Geeks, (x<NVp>y)<NVp> z = x<NVp>(y<NVp>z) is true.
3. Identity element - An element a [owner] exists in Math Geeks, such that for all elements x in Math Geeks, the equation a<NVp>x = x<NVp>a = x is true.
4. Inverse element - For each x in Math Geeks, an element y exists in Math Geeks, such that x<NVp>y = y<NVp>x = a, with a being the identity element.

Hope this helps with your question, Mr. Bilokonsky! ☺

Myk - (1) I hate bandwidth hogs. As a webmamster I find they cause over 90% of page not loading issues (or "spin loops" where a page claims to be loading for 1/2 hour or more) (2) watch yourself as more and more ISP's are blocking them or charging more for bandwidth - for example Sprint, Comcast, etc. are now charging more for more than 5 Gb / month or simply closing your account

As far as what is a group - there are other services that do what you want; Newsvine is for discussing the news and any group ought to be a subset of that, not some private club. If it isn't related to the news it probably is more appropriate to do it elsewhaer with better tools for social networking

We also have the phenomena of people posting seeds to groups to avoid the comments of people they don't like, or whose opinions they don't like.

There is a place for special interest groups (not everyone is interested in food / cooking, art, photography, etc.) But I don't think this is naturally it - (food or cooking NEWS, art NEWS, etc. is one thing for much else there are better sites; e.g. yahoo, google groups have photos allowed, large video files or link from youtube or .... I have a pdf of file sharing sites I got from somewhere if you want it)

This isn't facebook, it isn't youtube; it's NEWSvine and it should all be related to discussing the NEWS

I beg to differ a little bit though eric, even a 'newspaper' has different 'sections'... international, national, regional, local, travel, art, religion, food, hobbies, other interests, gardening, science, opinion, sports, gossip, etc...just about the only thing NV doesn't have is a 'classified' section...

Well, on a theoretical plane I agree with you, Eriq - but as they say, the difference between theory and practice is that in theory there is no difference.

Newsvine has a very specific culture that has sprung up over 3+ years. I get what you're saying, but issues like the one you raise there have been discussed since the very beginnings of this site and the community at large has opted to make this a COMMUNITY news site, not a community NEWS site.

Of course everything is centered around news, but hey - in the information age, every new blog post is "news" to someone. Creating group infrastructure to help everyone experience their particular definition of news is sort of the whole point of what some of us would like to see. That way, we don't have to worry about some subset imposing their definition of "news" upon the rest of us.

Newsvine has a very specific culture that has sprung up over 3+ years. I get what you're saying, but issues like the one you raise there have been discussed since the very beginnings of this site and the community at large has opted to make this a COMMUNITY news site, not a community NEWS site.

I would argue that everything that is the suck about Newsvine these days is centered around a gravitational pull towards a community NEWS site, and away from a COMMUNITY news site.

Brian, I may be showing me complete lack of web/pop culture, but is that is the suck a good thing or a bad thing?

Fellas a website like this one is nothing more than an electronic representation of a population. As populations grow physically in a geographic space the larger sense of community is diminished and what takes that place are smaller units within the overall structure like neighborhoods and boroughs in a city. My biggest problem is the look of the front page which is a reflection of the site to the larger world and quite frankly I've been kind of embarrassed to see what some of the screen caps would look like of it for a number of months. I'd rather that multiple modules were added for "top seeds" by category or "columnists by category" like an index.

dc - you did not read what I said. I agreed with what you say that we have groups to discuss the news in those specific areas that are not "general interest"; the problem is when people want to twist news discussions into everything they want, to turn newsvine into yet another social networking site like facebook or myspace.

Myk, Brian - you thereby prove the point. That "community" news is precisely what newsvine is not - this is not some private club site and groups were never intended to be private clubs. It says "Get Smarter here", below each comment you make, before you post it read what it says "You are posting this comment to a publicly viewable discussion." let me emphasize PUBLICLY VIEWABLE; not private groups.

The reason "newsvine sucks" for you is that you want it to be something it was never designed or intended to be; another facebook, myspace site. Maybe you would be better served to look into sites that exist for your social networking purpose and set up there for that purpose and link from here to there when you want these non-public features, non-news posts

At first, Newsvine was a private club by default, there were just not that many people using it so you could basically do what you want. there are roving e-gangs that delete articles from both liberal and conservative authors just because they don't like the content

At some point this becomes schizophrenic; either you can have a public news discussion site OR you can have a private club site; the two are mutually exclusive

The reason "newsvine sucks" for you is that you want it to be something it was never designed or intended to be; another facebook, myspace site.

I'm not sure I agree that Newsvine wasn't intended or designed to be a social-news site. If it weren't, the concept of "friends" wouldn't exit. Following (watching) users wouldn't exist. Aggregating or contributing content you find interesting wouldn't exist. Personal columns wouldn't exist. Avatars and bios wouldn't exist. Social features wouldn't have been promoted by the staff.

I'm not sure you understand the concept of social-networking if you think that Newsvine was not intended to foster community, to be a social endeavor at its core.. Hell, Newsvine is flickr with News instead of Photos. It's Twitter with news instead of tweets.

At some point this becomes schizophrenic; either you can have a public news discussion site OR you can have a private club site; the two are mutually exclusive

Sure, if you don't think very creatively. My thinking isn't the same as Myk's, I simply don't think the *problem* has been solved yet. I don't think he's got the solution, necessarily, but trending towards being a boring ass regurgitation of news stories that I can read anywhere else by people who are more capable as writers isn't something I think is worth my time and at least his ideas push for something more interesting. My thinking is that the "something more interesting" needs to work for everyone, not in little miniature insular communities.

Social sites by design have to be easy to use. Throw too many features, too much complication at users, and it all falls apart.

What Brian said. You're thinking inside a very small box, which is ironic given your argument.

Brian - I think you are confusing social with social news. They are not the same. On a news site "Aggregating or contributing content you find interesting" - is the very purpose of the site. "Personal columns wouldn't exist." - No personal columns are one of the purposes of a news site!

I agree with you, just as the voting comments and articles up or down is silly (counting views would make more sense), so is the social notion of "friends" - If I have more friends that someone else do I win? - silly

"Personal columns wouldn't exist." again these are tied to, what, the social issue or the personal news column (have you never seen a newspaper column with these features?)

"but trending towards being a boring ass regurgitation of news stories that I can read anywhere else by people who are more capable as writers isn't something I think is worth my time and at least his ideas push for something more interesting." - this is the point; you see news as boring; you don't see the comments as "getting smarter" but as getting social; turning it into a social club thta discusses news instead of a news site that discusses news.

Yes this is schizophrenic - dual and contrary purposes. You create your own social political system, ins and outs, "soshes and greasers" and every other clique in opposition to a open site where anyone can come in and out; make any comment they feel appropriate and not have to deal with a group.

Heck, I would bet that over 90% of the comments here will be from the "in" group; mostly because the ones who either feel shut out of the process or the vast majority who don't care are not represented in these comments.

I think a better idea for feedback is for a javascript that runs a popup everytime you log in (anyone / everyone) for a month to see what everyone thinks (with a big "I don't care" at the top of the choices)

Myk - I am not thinking inside a small box; I am a very experienced webmaster and these features - voting, friends, etc. - are called "sticky" features, they keep users entertained so you view more ads. The thing is; newsvine, itself, is a great big sticky feature. Like anything, it has a given market, given customers. You stretch the resources thin and just like a car that you want to be everything, it does nothing well.

I would rather have a site that worked well at having a better selection of news stories (like netvibes, for instance) and discussion than a bunch of bandwidth and server space hogs that benefit a select few.

When groups and social networking become the primary purpose, newsvine is gone and newsbookspacematesgroups (newsvine/facebook/myspace/classmates/yahoogroups) is not what many people want.

Heck, I would bet that over 90% of the comments here will be from the "in" group; mostly because the ones who either feel shut out of the process or the vast majority who don't care are not represented in these comments.

That never used to be the case, though. At one point, I wasn't new. I joined the conversations (just like this one) because I was interested in the direction of the concept. At another point, Jack and Bill weren't new, and they eventually added their voice to new feature discussions.

As usual, comments about the "in" group, never seem to really explain who that is, exactly. Looking over this list, there are a ton of names I've never seen before. Their comments are taken seriously (when they warrant it) and the back and forth with those users has led to a lot of dialogue about how groups work. Sure, people who have been here longer have some ideas about how they *have worked in the past* that newer users won't have, but it would be silly to hold back on that knowledge just because some people worry too much about "in groups" or whatever you want to call them.

Whether you (or anyone else) likes it or not, some of the best information about improving groups (based on the existing concept) is going to come from people who have put the existing concept to the test, who have used it for a long time.

The thing is; newsvine, itself, is a great big sticky feature.

As are all sites that rely on user generated content.

this is the point; you see news as boring; you don't see the comments as "getting smarter" but as getting social; turning it into a social club thta discusses news instead of a news site that discusses news.

No, I don't. I see the same old conversations based on the same old (outdated) concepts about how we consume the news as boring. I presume the Newsvine staff did too, which led to the crazy idea to create something more interesting from that framework, which turned out to be Newsvine.

Brian - I think you are confusing social with social news. They are not the same.

Well, I would think that would be clear based on the addition of the word "news". News is just the hook. It's the concept that differentiates this site from other social sites. It's not a pure social networking experience like Facebook, but it's a social site nonetheless.

On a news site "Aggregating or contributing content you find interesting" - is the very purpose of the site. "Personal columns wouldn't exist." - No personal columns are one of the purposes of a news site!

I don't understand where you're going with this. You keep utilizing examples of *social* aspects of the internet, aspects that are popularly uniform across any number of social websites, and then saying that those are simply aspects of a News site.

That's simply weird thinking.

When groups and social networking become the primary purpose, newsvine is gone and newsbookspacematesgroups (newsvine/facebook/myspace/classmates/yahoogroups) is not what many people want.

Seriously: What website have you been visiting? I dunno, but you don't seem to get -- or are unwilling to accept -- what is a pretty blatantly social concept for what it very clearly is.

Then maybe you don't really understand news. Aggregating news (like compound RSS feeds - see netvibes) is news, not social networking (in fact there is NO networking involved).

Contributing content, personal columns are what newspapers, opinion magazines do - again there is no networking involved, no social networking.

Yahoo at one time had clubs and groups - the difference was that groups were generally themed, e.g. quilting; where clubs were social gatherings of people with no particular theme planned.

Social networking is clubs; people are not here for news anymore they are here for conversations among themselves. There are a lot of sites on the internet for tha6t; this was never intended to be one of them ("get smarter here" not get a cup of coffee here)

Again, I would invite you to find the club centered social networking site that best fits what you want and link to it (kaffe klatch here) for live conversation and keep newsvine for news and discussion of news. (note: this is why we have the "no value" flag, because most of the social comments are off-topic. Unfortunately we also have people who intimidate yopu if you try to keep a discussion off-topic; I know one prolific member who left when people in the in group who got off-topic comments deleted complained that it "had" to be political, thta thye disagreed with the author; and got their off topic comments reinstated. Of course no one asked the author / moderator why the comments were deleted, that would mean taking responsibility for one's actions)

Then maybe you don't really understand news.

It's clear that one of us, at least, doesn't understand something.

Contributing content, personal columns are what newspapers, opinion magazines do - again there is no networking involved, no social networking.

Right. The content is contributed by professionals. People who write for a living, with the intent of disseminating that content in a primarily static form, for read-only consumption. I don't know what you think Newsvine *is* but it's not that.

There are a lot of sites on the internet for tha6t; this was never intended to be one of them ("get smarter here" not get a cup of coffee here)

That's simply not the case. You're arguing something that is plainly wrong, and that can be proven wrong via a simple perusal of the features. Being that I've already done that, I can only assume that providing the list *again* would be a waste of my time.

Again, I would invite

I would advise *you* not to tell me how to go about my business.

note: this is why we have the "no value" flag, because most of the social comments are off-topic.

Wrong again, I'm afraid. The no value has nothing at all to do with social comments.

Fortunately, Tyler weighed in on this, when I went through the trouble to ask questions, primarily so that I'd have answers for situations like this:

What constitutes a "no value" comment?

A ‘No value’ comment is something short and pointless like ‘lol’ or something way off-topic like this.

Note that he says nothing *at all* about social comments being unacceptable or of "no value", so long as they're on topic. Individual moderators get to decide that, not Eriq Sampson.

At any rate, even *if* we assume that discussions *must be* centered around the news (I think that's bull@!$%#, but whatever) that *still* doesn't mean that newsvine isn't a social-news site, or even a social site in whatever sense that you want to differentiate between the two, because every concept of almost every social site in existence exists in some form on Newsvine, with the only difference being that *this* social site is news-centric.

There are a lot of topics that I'm not qualified to talk about, but the concept of the social internet, in its many forms, isn't one of them. Over the years, I've either dabbled in or been active in more online social-concepts than most, whether it be pure social-networking, book-centric, photo-centric, beer-centric or whatever-else-centric, and I'm telling you *again* that you don't grasp the concept of Newsvine, if you think it's simply a "news" site.

And, to bring this on topic: The existence of groups, in which like-minded individuals who like to socialize about like-minded topics, and even collaborate to carve a niche about those topics, is the strongest evidence that Newsvine is, in fact, a social site, that just so happens to focus on news.

I disagree with Myk on most of the issues he raises. Newsvine is not MySpace, nor is it Digg. It is not really a social site, either...although many believe it is.

80-85% of the people who visit my column aren't Newsvine members, they don't vote, they don't comment. And anywhere from 10-25,000 a month drop by 'Straight Talk'. The outside audience at Newsvine far surpasses internal traffic.

Enabling mass bandwidth and server-eating tools and gadgets to change around backgrounds etc. makes little sense. People who want those things at Newsvine should just go sign up at a good blog site. Or get their own server. Then you can play with toys all you wish, upload videos and mp3's, whatever.

MySpace isn't 'A Place for Friends'. It's a jam-packed stadium with millions of people waving their arms simoutaneously and shouting, 'Look at me! NOOO! Look at ME!'

You have Newsvine contributors, yes. And there is a certain amount of social activity between them, which is normal. But if this is where you think the best traffic for your column originates, you would be dead wrong. It comes from outside Newsvine, from people who find you through Google, or those NV Link Love messages.

In some instances, you could post a popular article aimed at the general public and surpass in a day what many groups receive in traffic in a month. For just that one article.

Groups are a convenience, a way to track content, to sift content. But they certainly aren't the be-all and end-all of Newsvine. They are an accessory.

Newsvine carries a lot of stuff from its contributors other than straight news, and that is okay. But the main purpose is two-fold: Providing a source to view and discuss the news and other interesting stories via the articles in the New York Times and MSNBC...and contributions by Newsvine's users. This is what NV is really all about.

It's not about the groups, or toys. It never was. It's attracting viewers to your columns, either regular visitors, or people who have never heard of Newsvine...but bringing them in from the outside. And then making them want to return.

I am in favor of any improvement to the site that helps accomplish this goal. Fluff? Extra junk for groups? Not a chance.

not really a social site

Sure it is. I'm not sure why people keep claiming otherwise, unless people have an incredibly myopic view of what a "social site" entails.

It comes from outside Newsvine, from people who find you through Google, or those NV Link Love messages.

I think you're wrong, in the same way I think Eriq was wrong. If you think that Newsvine was ever "meant" to be a source of income for its users, or some sort of page-views vehicle, you're simply misguided. I've seen Mike D. state that ad revenue wasn't intended for that purpose -- it was just the right thing to do, or something to that effect.

It's not about the groups, or toys. It never was. It's attracting viewers to your columns, either regular visitors, or people who have never heard of Newsvine...but bringing them in from the outside. And then making them want to return.

I can't believe that people who have been using this site, and apparently *not* paying attention to what the people who *created* the site have said on the matter, are so confident in saying what the "purpose" is...

Enabling mass bandwidth and server-eating tools and gadgets to change around backgrounds etc. makes little sense.

I agree with you. However, "changing backgrounds" has nothing to do with whether a site is, at heart, a social site. I can't change my flickr page. It's a social site. I can't change my *facebook* page either, yet it's undeniably a social site. While I agree that we shouldn't give too much leeway on that front, I think (for examples) modules was a step in the right direction.

But if this is where you think the best traffic for your column originates, you would be dead wrong. It comes from outside Newsvine, from people who find you through Google, or those NV Link Love messages.

For the vast majority of users, yes, I think that's where the traffic generates. Yes, there are people who try to use Newsvine as an income supplement. Welcome to less than 1% of the active Newsvine population. *Most* people post some content, post it to a few groups, maybe slap a couple of obvious tags on there, and are content when 20 or 30 people (on a good day) come in to comment. Then, there are people (like you) who maybe work a little harder to cross promote, and yes, doing that successfully means you see more traffic, there's no doubt about that. Sometimes, you don't even try, and you get a link, and you see more traffic.

I don't think that's normal for most people. And, my guess is that when they were sitting around thinking about Newsvine, it wasn't their goal to get every user thinking of ways to drive traffic via thinking too hard about it. I suspect they wanted people to come in, drag in some content that they like, maybe try their hand at having fun while creating some content, and that activity would then eventually take care of itself.

And then making them want to return.

You know what has *never ever ever ever* made any significant number of people "want to return" to Newsvine? The content alone. You know what is *almost always* the reason people want to return? The options. The chance encounter of meeting one fun person who says something nice and/or encouraging. A comment from someone who happens in and who read what you seeded and/or wrote.

You think people keep coming back for Steve Watt's "Lost in the Vines" because of his recaps? No. They come back because the same people are there (and because about 20 of us were there when it started) and we have a good time, we started a formula, we encourage each other's commentary, and because it's a social event. It's a chance to read not only what we write ourselves, but what other people have to say.

The content might bring some people in, sure. And then they go away. The social aspects (and those are the ones I've mentioned in my past several comments) are the aspects that get people to *actually* stick around. The fights, the silly arguments, the groups, the familiarity, the ability to try and stake out some turf using those features, the idiotic hope that you can make much money from ad revenue, etc. Even the pointless leaderboard and the vineacity has given the site its challenge, and given users something to stick around for.

The very idea that we should be striving to bring people in from the outside without first improving the things that have *always* kept people here, that we simply want to be a content source that herds in readers simply to pump up our page views:

That is the attitude that has led to almost every stupid article about politics, every worthless rant, and all the other crap we're inundated with that serves only one purpose, and that is to see huge returns, at all costs.

The trouble *I* have is that all the social aspects haven't scaled well with the number of users we see, and we're not seeing the sort of things that we used to see, that made the site fun, that made people want to stick around and help other users learn how to do things.

Brian Ford quotes me quite a bit in his response. No problem.

not really a social site

Brian says: 'Sure it is. I'm not sure why people keep claiming otherwise, unless people have an incredibly myopic view of what a "social site" entails.'

My response to this: You are splitting hairs. Social sites are Facebook and MySpace, and many others. I think we can agree Newsvine is not like them, nor are the options or accounts the same.

It comes from outside Newsvine, from people who find you through Google, or those NV Link Love messages.

Brian says: 'I think you're wrong, in the same way I think Eriq was wrong. If you think that Newsvine was ever "meant" to be a source of income for its users, or some sort of page-views vehicle, you're simply misguided. I've seen Mike D. state that ad revenue wasn't intended for that purpose -- it was just the right thing to do, or something to that effect.'

My response: I wasn't discussing Newsvine income. I was discussing readers. Google Analytics tells me consistently that 80-85% of visitors don't even see the NV homepage unless they go there AFTER they read one of your articles. Or anybody's articles, probably.

When you publish an article at Newsvine, the tags are picked up by Google and other search engines pretty soon afterward. Then someone hits that search tag and they find YOUR article at Newsvine. This is where most traffic comes from at NV for the majority of users, or if they get NV Link-Loved somewhere. For those of who wonder why, if you have Google Analytics installed, that an article gets a lot more views but no additional votes, this is WHY. Because people drop by to read. Most don't join NV, some do, but even then they might not vote or comment.

Don't believe it? Google THIS term on a regular search: 'Manson Girls'.

And that's not the only one that pops up on page one of a Google search, either. Smart tagging helps. Newsvine a social site? Not really. Only among some of the members.

I saw a comment back there about 'wishing it was like the old days at Newsvine' etc or something to that effect. I'm sure it was great, and everyone involved has nice memories of that time. I certainly don't begrudge this.

However, Newsvine is now the discussion site for one of the most popular cable networks going and those days are GONE. Users and commenters sign up by the ton, to come and go each day. Some stay, others don't.

With all this additional traffic and the sheer volume of users, your best bet is to set by example by creating a sharp column that helps draw viewers.

When you publish an article at Newsvine, the tags are picked up by Google and other search engines pretty soon afterward. Then someone hits that search tag and they find YOUR article at Newsvine.

That's why some "hot chick" seeds and articles always work. ;>)

I wasn't discussing Newsvine income.

Half a dozen of one... Maybe you're the exception which proves the rule, but almost anyone else who is going to go through more trouble than most to tag for readership, to cross-promote, to *strive for* link-love is doing so to augment their income.

That's why some "hot chick" seeds and articles always work. ;>)

And I never denied that. I was told at one point about a user who got quite a lot of money because of an accidental connection to some porn site. With that said, I still say that this isn't the "point of" Newsvine.

Readership is great, sure. I simply don't think most people really strive for it. *Most* people don't even tag their articles, and of those that do, most don't do so in a way that is particularly useful to bring people in -- and the remainder tend to tag improperly in order to game the system.

The best example I can give of this is Newsvine taking away the ability to seed MSNBC articles -- arguably the best way to earn page views -- from those few who were doing so as responsibly as possible. If the goal were merely to bring some viewers in, let them read and earn page views, why take that away? That was a formula for success, under that strategy.

At any rate, yes, we have everything we need, if we want, to maximize our return. Even with that in mind, that doesn't mean that Newsvine isn't a social site. I'm not sure why that is being suggested.

People keep talking about "get smarter here" as though that proves (somehow) the point that Newsvine is a strict "news" site, and that it isn't a social concept.

Huh?

"Get smarter here" -- as an ideal -- *demands* social interaction. Unfortunately, it demands the sort of social interaction we don't see much of. It asks for an exchange of ideas. It requires that Bill Harrison and I disagree and that Jack Gillis has a third point of view, different than Bill's, more correct than mine, that this sort of difference of opinion leads to dialogue, etc.

My response to this: You are splitting hairs. Social sites are Facebook and MySpace, and many others. I think we can agree Newsvine is not like them, nor are the options or accounts the same.

No, I'm not. I am saying that if you think that Myspace and Facebook sum up the concept of social sites, you simply don't know much about social sites, and their varying forms.

Newsvine is *one of* those forms.

With all this additional traffic and the sheer volume of users, your best bet is to set by example by creating a sharp column that helps draw viewers.

Good luck with that. Your (not you -- I'm speaking generally) *best* bet is to be an ass, to write sensational headlines, to write pointless content about the same thing that the next guy is sensationally writing about, to put the least amount of thought you can into seeds and articles.

Writing a "sharp column" means very little. I would argue that doing so was *more effective* pre-MSNBC.

My hope is that this new group concept helps with that.

Robert:

Funny. I just got into a minor beef elsewhere for describing the United States Marine Corps as a "social organization," but the dispute is easily settled by understanding there's a key distinction between "organization devoted to socializing" and "the organizing principle of any society."

I come down about halfway between you and Brian. As I've said before, I write for work and comment for play (and yeah, yeah, I know I've been lazy at work lately, I promise to do better soon).

I think you're wrong to discount the "discuss the news" aspect of NV's mission, which is clearly "socializing," but I think Brian is wrong to treat that as the primary organizing principle. NV is first a content provider and platform, then a social site. We have nothing to socialize about if we don't have the News.

We have nothing to socialize about if we don't have the News.

I don't think that differs from what I've said, really. I never said that Newsvine is *like* Myspace or that it is comparable or that social aspects alone are enough.

I don't discount the niche, in other words.

Again, Flickr is undeniably a platform for photography and if you took the photography away, the social aspect is pointless. With that said, the *point* of Flickr would be lost, and Flickr would have failed *miserably* if "posting photos" that were the primary purpose.

The primary *purpose* is to allow people to create a social network *around* a platform for photography, a shared, specialized, interest.

So, yes, I think both are a vital component, but my main point is that I think the social aspect is the differentiator, it's sort of the *point* of putting Newsvine together, to provide something different.

Minus the social aspect, there would be almost no point to be here, if there would be *any* point.

Brian:

Wow. I mean, just wow. I'm not sure if it's a subjective, philosopical metaphysical difference or an objective, empirical, factual dispute but I simply couldn't disagree more:

With that said, the *point* of Flickr would be lost, and Flickr would have failed *miserably* if "posting photos" that were the primary purpose.

My photog pal Eileen, whose photos I use to illustrate my articles whenever I can, is a total flickr addict and we've joked together about each of us having the same addiction to different "drugs," but, No. That's wrong. The "point" of flickr isn't the social-media aspect, it's the pictures, and almost everyone who casually encounters flickr utilizes it in terms of that "point."

Minus the social aspect, there would be almost no point to be here, if there would be *any* point.

Yeah. There would be. The front page would be the sum-total of user-generated NEWS by way of original articles and seeds. Granted, without the social aspect the dynamic would be very different and NV would be much smaller, etc. But the social aspect is an effect of the content and platform, not a cause.

The "point" of flickr isn't the social-media aspect, it's the pictures, and almost everyone who casually encounters flickr utilizes it in terms of that "point."

I don't think the point is the pictures "in general" at all. I think the pictures are a vehicle. So, while the pictures are necessary, I don't think the can be boiled down to being the point.

I'd be interested to know how many people look at pictures randomly, on Flickr. Then, I'd like to compare that to people who primarily view the pictures of people in their contact list and perhaps (via degrees of separation) pictures by contacts of their contacts.

How many people *go out of there way* to look at pictures from people just for the fun of looking at pictures that aren't by their contacts, aren't by people in groups that they seek out.

I would guess not many, because Flickr came up with concepts like "interestingness" which is a way to get people to check out pictures that I (or whoever) might otherwise overlook.

And, in general, I think the *best* most *successful* social aspects figure out ways to make sure that people are branching out as much as possible, they provide ideas (groups!) that help *filter in* content, naturally. So, we are exposed to as much as possible.

Much of that is accomplished via subtle social networks.

The front page would be the sum-total of user-generated NEWS by way of original articles and seeds.

Which would mean that the front page would be (or is, currently) in essence, a recreation of other, better "news" sites. If that's what Newsvine *could* boil down to, I'll just take the other news sites, thank you.

An experiment:

Take someone who does well with link-love. Sees a lot of page views. Someone who one could argue doesn't "need" the social aspect, because their primary views originate off-site.

Have them turn off comments on *everything* they publish for a few months.

See where they are after that period of time.

Perhaps it can be done. My thought is: Who cares? I have almost no interest in page views without interaction. And, I think part of the primary purpose of Newsvine was balancing page views and interaction, to provide a way to "get smarter" and I think the core of that is a social core.

Brian:

Arrrgh. I was hoping your reply would be shorter so I wouldn't have to feel guilty about my reply being even shorter still.

Look. The ultimate consequence of the Super Bowl is a social experience, articulated in an almost infinite number of ways, from the on site luxury boxes to a viewing party with beer and dollar-special potato chips at some trailer park two thousand miles away. But the point is the football game.

I'm not necessarily disputing your argument now, since I allowed that we may be dealing with a contest of metaphysical principles rather than a factual matter. So I'm going to treat this a metaphysical dispute and sign off now.

If you think Flickr is about social networking you don't know flickr.

Why do you think there is a system for tracking camera used, film (ISO) / digital resolution, lens, aperature, shutter speed, etc. Flickr is a photographers site - it is about the photography, the art of pictures. The comments were an add on (they wisely do not have voting); and while they have "groups", rarely are there comments / dicsussions in the groups although the system is there.

Actually, the programming for "comments" is old; you can add it for free on virtually any web site (hosted on Apache servers) - look at the webmaster sites. Like I said; from a webmaster's view this is all sticky content to get people to stick around and see the ads.

No, Brian. The prupose of Newsvine is posting articles about News events and then discussing that article / seed. That is what the system is set up for. Groups were created because not everyone wants to read / write about the latest Broadway play but some people want to do so passionately and having a group dedicated to that makes a lot of sense. Groups were never intended to be about persons, personalities, non-news socializing

Again there are many social networking sites better suited to what peoople who want social networking want. I clipped the following from an article (and I lost the origin) a year or so ago

Diigo: Social annotation (two words that never should have met); you tag pages with your comments, others can find you based on those comments.

Attendi: Find other subject matter experts and chat with them, then take chats and make them persistent. One use mentioned is marketing -- chat immediately with company reps about a product. Hard to see a business model for this one.

RelevantMind: Adds community to product research. Finds existing communities that discuss certain products. Business model is based on partnering the retail outlets, building product pages, and then finding existing Web conversations of those products being used in a variety of ways. Seems useful enough, but of course retailer participation is the tough nut to crack.

VirtualVentures: Virtual venture capitalist game -- they use the wisdom of mobs, err, groups, to pick the best ideas to fund. It's a game, but you don't benefit if you win, the venture fund does. You get a million virtual dollars; if you make virtual money on your investments, your reputation goes up. Since Second Life works, this probably will, too.

Adventa/Ideablob.com: An idea sharing community site that gives away $10K each month to bribe contributers to vet their ideas on Ideablob. Site visitors can vote on ideas. Hmmm. Would you share your million dollar idea here?

Spigit: Adding analytics to social networking. Gives structure to enterprise social networking sites intended for fostering innovation. By capturing the process of evaluating and evolving ideas, the software can analyze the quality of ideas. Includes a pseudo investing system, sort of like virtual ventures. Some enterprises might get some good use out of this for the R&D efforts. Try it as Spigit.com.

Glam Media: Wow, Web 2.0 going to Web 3.0. What could that mean? Well, it's a distributed media platform. Still confused? Me, too. It appears that they're aggregating and classifying content. Then the media is distributed to other sources through widgets. Social ranking happens by subject area experts, somewhat different than digg or slash/dot. Glam calls those experts curators. It's all at Glam.com.



Traffic Stats for Web 2.0's 25 Hottest Sites June 2007

eBizMBA's monthly survey of traffic data for the top 25 largest web 2.0 sites ranked by a combination of Compete and Quantcast data. For each site, we show unique U.S. monthly visitor data as well as respective rank. For entries where a wide range exists between the two data sets the highest numbers were used for ranking purposes. Although no traffic metrics are completely accurate we do believe the data below to be useful for gauging relative audience size.

1 | MySpace.com
67,654,880 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 6 - Compete
49,000,000 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 6 - Quantcast
eBusiness News | Top 25 Largest Web 2.0 Sites | Posted 6/09/2007

2 | Wikipedia.org
46,716,672 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 10 - Compete
49,000,000 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 7 - Quantcast
eBusiness News | Top 25 Largest Web 2.0 Sites | Posted 6/09/2007

3 | YouTube.com
43,798,702 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 12 - Compete
30,000,000 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 15 - Quantcast
eBusiness News | Top 25 Largest Web 2.0 Sites | Posted 6/09/2007

4 | FaceBook.com
20,284,357 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 29 - Compete
20,000,000 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 26 - Quantcast
eBusiness News | Top 25 Largest Web 2.0 Sites | Posted 6/09/2007

5 | PhotoBucket.com
24,197,063 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 22 - Compete
14,000,000 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 30 - Quantcast
eBusiness News | Top 25 Largest Web 2.0 Sites | Posted 6/09/2007

6 | CraigsList.org
21,291,669 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 28 - Compete
13,000,000 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 41 - Quantcast
eBusiness News | Top 25 Largest Web 2.0 Sites | Posted 6/09/2007

7 | flickr.com
17,613,649 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 40 - Compete
8,000,000 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 81 - Quantcast
eBusiness News | Top 25 Largest Web 2.0 Sites | Posted 6/09/2007

8 | digg.com
22,637,952 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 24 - Compete
6,900,000 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 99 - Quantcast
eBusiness News | Top 25 Largest Web 2.0 Sites | Posted 6/09/2007

9 | Topix.com
19,597,055 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 34 - Compete
2,100,000 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 545 - Quantcast
eBusiness News | Top 25 Largest Web 2.0 Sites | Posted 6/09/2007

10 | Wordpress.com
3,931,787 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 369 - Compete
12,299,776 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 44 - Quantcast
eBusiness News | Top 25 Largest Web 2.0 Sites | Posted 6/09/2007

11 | Netscape.com
4,921,378 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 274 - Compete
8,359,018 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 76 - Quantcast
eBusiness News | Top 25 Largest Web 2.0 Sites | Posted 6/09/2007

12 | TypePad.com
6,279,908 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 189 - Compete
5,000,000 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 154 - Quantcast
eBusiness News | Top 25 Largest Web 2.0 Sites | Posted 6/09/2007

13 | CafePress.com
3,335,308 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 452 - Compete
3,200,000 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 305 - Quantcast
eBusiness News | Top 25 Largest Web 2.0 Sites | Posted 6/09/2007

14 | Feedburner.com
6,339,449 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 187 - Compete
536,100 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 3,151 - Quantcast
eBusiness News | Top 25 Largest Web 2.0 Sites | Posted 6/09/2007

15 | Xanga.com
3,717,917 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 398 - Compete
1,800,000 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 669 - Quantcast
eBusiness News | Top 25 Largest Web 2.0 Sites | Posted 6/09/2007

16 | Technorati.com
3,329,262 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 453 - Compete
1,600,000 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 781 - Quantcast
eBusiness News | Top 25 Largest Web 2.0 Sites | Posted 6/09/2007

17 | LiveJournal.com
3,235,686 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 470 - Compete
1,900,000 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 657 - Quantcast
eBusiness News | Top 25 Largest Web 2.0 Sites | Posted 6/09/2007

18 | Last.fm
1,341,209 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 1,339 - Compete
1,100,000 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 1,335 - Quantcast
eBusiness News | Top 25 Largest Web 2.0 Sites | Posted 6/09/2007

19 | DailyMotion.com
1,681,495 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 1,030 - Compete
788,864 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 2,006 - Quantcast
eBusiness News | Top 25 Largest Web 2.0 Sites | Posted 6/09/2007

20 | Friendster.com
1,375,045 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 1,303 - Compete
818,081 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 1,926 - Quantcast
eBusiness News | Top 25 Largest Web 2.0 Sites | Posted 6/09/2007

21 | LinkedIn.com
1,244,871 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 1,464 - Compete
1,000,000 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 1,425 - Quantcast
eBusiness News | Top 25 Largest Web 2.0 Sites | Posted 6/09/2007

22 | iStockPhoto.com
1,018,658 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 1,850 - Compete
999,938 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 1,499 - Quantcast
eBusiness News | Top 25 Largest Web 2.0 Sites | Posted 6/09/2007

23 | del.icio.us
973,908 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 1,930 - Compete
1,100,000 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 1,341 - Quantcast
eBusiness News | Top 25 Largest Web 2.0 Sites | Posted 6/09/2007

24 | StumbleUpon.com
660,450 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 2,932 - Compete
688,950 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 2,339 - Quantcast
eBusiness News | Top 25 Largest Web 2.0 Sites | Posted 6/09/2007

25 | MyBlogLog.com
2,461,599 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 650 - Compete
50,946 Unique Monthly Visitors (United States) - Rank: 4,794 - Quantcast
eBusiness News | Top 25 Largest Web 2.0 Sites | Posted 6/09/2007



30 Largest Social Bookmarking Sites July 2007

Here are the 30 Largest Social Bookmarking Sites ranked by a combination of Inbound Links, Google Page Rank, Alexa Rank, and U.S. traffic data from Compete and Quantcast. Although no traffic metrics are completely accurate we do believe the data below to be useful for gauging relative audience size.

1 | digg.com
117,796,083 - Inbound Links | 22,541,770 - Compete Monthly Visitors | 7,200,000 - Quantcast Monthly Visitors | 95 - Alexa Ranking. | Page Rank: 8
30 Largest Social Bookmarking Sites | Updated 7/17/2007 | eBizMBA

2 | Netscape.com
22,728,070 - Inbound Links | 4,870,107 - Compete Monthly Visitors | 8,079,125 - Quantcast Monthly Visitors | 568 - Alexa Ranking. | Page Rank: 9
30 Largest Social Bookmarking Sites | Updated 7/17/2007 | eBizMBA

3 | Technorati.com
75,029,441 - Inbound Links | 2,877,385 - Compete Monthly Visitors | 1,600,000 - Quantcast Monthly Visitors | 194 - Alexa Ranking. | Page Rank: 8
30 Largest Social Bookmarking Sites | Updated 7/17/2007 | eBizMBA

4 | del.icio.us
172,291,472 - Inbound Links | 1,032,835 - Compete Monthly Visitors | 1,100,000 - Quantcast Monthly Visitors | 234 - Alexa Ranking. | Page Rank: 8
30 Largest Social Bookmarking Sites | Updated 7/17/2007 | eBizMBA

5 | Fark.com
11,534,478 - Inbound Links | 217,545 - Compete Monthly Visitors | 1,797,393 - Quantcast Monthly Visitors | 1,835 - Alexa Ranking. | Page Rank: 7
30 Largest Social Bookmarking Sites | Updated 7/17/2007 | eBizMBA

6 | StumbleUpon.com
16,953,085 - Inbound Links | 731,424 - Compete Monthly Visitors | 645,880 - Quantcast Monthly Visitors | 296 - Alexa Ranking. | Page Rank: 8
30 Largest Social Bookmarking Sites | Updated 7/17/2007 | eBizMBA

7 | MyBlogLog.com
1,711,429 - Inbound Links | 1,795,517 - Compete Monthly Visitors | 78,295 - Quantcast Monthly Visitors | 411 - Alexa Ranking. | Page Rank: 7
30 Largest Social Bookmarking Sites | Updated 7/17/2007 | eBizMBA

8 | reddit.com
49,048,002 - Inbound Links | 976,882 - Compete Monthly Visitors | 266,266 - Quantcast Monthly Visitors | 826 - Alexa Ranking. | Page Rank: 7
30 Largest Social Bookmarking Sites | Updated 7/17/2007 | eBizMBA

9 | kaboodle.com
99,788 - Inbound Links | 1,611,382 - Compete Monthly Visitors | 691,706 - Quantcast Monthly Visitors | 9,840 - Alexa Ranking. | Page Rank: 6
30 Largest Social Bookmarking Sites | Updated 7/17/2007 | eBizMBA

10 | Slashdot.org
11,418,847 - Inbound Links | 276,433 - Compete Monthly Visitors | 252,696 - Quantcast Monthly Visitors | 541 - Alexa Ranking. | Page Rank: 9
30 Largest Social Bookmarking Sites | Updated 7/17/2007 | eBizMBA

11 | Bloglines.com
55,357,021 - Inbound Links | 170,518 - Compete Monthly Visitors | 92,760 - Quantcast Monthly Visitors | 804 - Alexa Ranking. | Page Rank: 9
30 Largest Social Bookmarking Sites | Updated 7/17/2007 | eBizMBA

12 | blinklist.com
23,703,633 - Inbound Links | 136,654 - Compete Monthly Visitors | 158,548 - Quantcast Monthly Visitors | 4,461 - Alexa Ranking. | Page Rank: 6
30 Largest Social Bookmarking Sites | Updated 7/17/2007 | eBizMBA

13 | netvouz.com
8,521,836 - Inbound Links | 87,746 - Compete Monthly Visitors | 88,705 - Quantcast Monthly Visitors | 14,069 - Alexa Ranking. | Page Rank: 6
30 Largest Social Bookmarking Sites | Updated 7/17/2007 | eBizMBA

14 | clipmarks.com
179,742 - Inbound Links | 124,970 - Compete Monthly Visitors | 108,688 - Quantcast Monthly Visitors | 6,310 - Alexa Ranking. | Page Rank: 6
30 Largest Social Bookmarking Sites | Updated 7/17/2007 | eBizMBA

15 | Furl.net
50,132,698 - Inbound Links | 88,892 - Compete Monthly Visitors | 65,539 - Quantcast Monthly Visitors | 4,042 - Alexa Ranking. | Page Rank: 8
30 Largest Social Bookmarking Sites | Updated 7/17/2007 | eBizMBA

16 | newsvine.com
23,184,494 - Inbound Links | 188,097 - Compete Monthly Visitors | 185,708 - Quantcast Monthly Visitors | 3,775 - Alexa Ranking. | Page Rank: 7
30 Largest Social Bookmarking Sites | Updated 7/17/2007 | eBizMBA

17 | Mister-Wong
12,192,075 - Inbound Links | 7,647 - Compete Monthly Visitors | 3,188 - Quantcast Monthly Visitors | 1,893 - Alexa Ranking. | Page Rank: 7
30 Largest Social Bookmarking Sites | Updated 7/17/2007 | eBizMBA

18 | dzone.com
1,060,887 - Inbound Links | 3,700 - Compete Monthly Visitors | 111,779 - Quantcast Monthly Visitors | 5,198 - Alexa Ranking. | Page Rank: 6
30 Largest Social Bookmarking Sites | Updated 7/17/2007 | eBizMBA

19 | ma.gnolia.com
14,431,848 - Inbound Links | 17,685 - Compete Monthly Visitors | 27,911 - Quantcast Monthly Visitors | 7,374 - Alexa Ranking. | Page Rank: 7
30 Largest Social Bookmarking Sites | Updated 7/17/2007 | eBizMBA

20 | Tailrank.com
5,090,357 - Inbound Links | 41,710 - Compete Monthly Visitors | 34,115 - Quantcast Monthly Visitors | 26,931 - Alexa Ranking. | Page Rank: 7
30 Largest Social Bookmarking Sites | Updated 7/17/2007 | eBizMBA

21 | ShoutWire.com
161,351 - Inbound Links | 61,481 - Compete Monthly Visitors | 55,809 - Quantcast Monthly Visitors | 10,620 - Alexa Ranking. | Page Rank: 6
30 Largest Social Bookmarking Sites | Updated 7/17/2007 | eBizMBA

22 | BlogMarks.net
9,528,647 - Inbound Links | 24,628 - Compete Monthly Visitors | 29,333 - Quantcast Monthly Visitors | 9,908 - Alexa Ranking. | Page Rank: 6
30 Largest Social Bookmarking Sites | Updated 7/17/2007 | eBizMBA

23 | BlueDot.us
1,067,958 - Inbound Links | 39,185 - Compete Monthly Visitors | 35,160 - Quantcast Monthly Visitors | 11,980 - Alexa Ranking. | Page Rank: 6
30 Largest Social Bookmarking Sites | Updated 7/17/2007 | eBizMBA

24 | simpy.com
13,471,338 - Inbound Links | 22,211 - Compete Monthly Visitors | 46,469 - Quantcast Monthly Visitors | 10,497 - Alexa Ranking. | Page Rank: 7
30 Largest Social Bookmarking Sites | Updated 7/17/2007 | eBizMBA

25 | linkswarm.com
150,280 - Inbound Links | 10,456 - Compete Monthly Visitors | 10,774 - Quantcast Monthly Visitors | 42,647 - Alexa Ranking. | Page Rank: 5
30 Largest Social Bookmarking Sites | Updated 7/17/2007 | eBizMBA

26 | Spotplex.com
487,688 - Inbound Links | 32,826 - Compete Monthly Visitors | 6,376 - Quantcast Monthly Visitors | 41,145 - Alexa Ranking. | Page Rank: 6
30 Largest Social Bookmarking Sites | Updated 7/17/2007 | eBizMBA

27 | Spurl.net
18,580,057 - Inbound Links | 15,938 - Compete Monthly Visitors | 3,327 - Quantcast Monthly Visitors | 14,099 - Alexa Ranking. | Page Rank: 6
30 Largest Social Bookmarking Sites | Updated 7/17/2007 | eBizMBA

28 | Spotback.com
95,106 - Inbound Links | 18,603 - Compete Monthly Visitors | 2,000 - Quantcast Monthly Visitors | 40,538 - Alexa Ranking. | Page Rank: 5
30 Largest Social Bookmarking Sites | Updated 7/17/2007 | eBizMBA

29 | PlugIm.com
157,901 - Inbound Links | 5,342 - Compete Monthly Visitors | 3,188 - Quantcast Monthly Visitors | 13,093 - Alexa Ranking. | Page Rank: 5
30 Largest Social Bookmarking Sites | Updated 7/17/2007 | eBizMBA

30 | MyBookmarks.com
25,398 - Inbound Links | 6,920 - Compete Monthly Visitors | 5,607 - Quantcast Monthly Visitors | 111,197 - Alexa Ranking. | Page Rank: 5
30 Largest Social Bookmarking Sites | Updated 7/17/2007 | eBizMBA

NOTE: they refer to Newsvine as a social bookmarking site

That should give you some idea; Google social networking and see what you come up with. This doesn't even begin to cover the topic. The point is you CAN find what you want in the proper location. The problem with trying to twist newsvine into a social networking site is that it does not do that well; this is a mutually exclusive notion. Either we can be a news and commentary site OR we can be a social networking site; each precludes the use as the other.

Arrrgh. I was hoping your reply would be shorter

Surely, deep in the back of your mind, you must have known that hope was in vain. ;)

If you think Flickr is about social networking you don't know flickr.

Why do you think there is a system for tracking camera used, film (ISO) / digital resolution, lens, aperature, shutter speed, etc. Flickr is a photographers site - it is about the photography, the art of pictures.

Why do you persist in claiming that the existence of certain features, in this case tracking camera data, negates or denies the social aspects of the site?

First of all, I would *guess* that less than 5% of the flickr population looks at the camera information you're talking about. But, even *with* its existence, the real power of flickr is the ability to follow people who you like, to communicate with them and with others via comments, to add notes to their pictures which help lead to a dialogue about what it is we do or don't like, to actively *choose* to not follow people who we don't particularly find much in common with, or simply don't like.

Much like your argument with Newsvine, you seem to be arguing that I have denied the all-too obvious fact that Flickr is a photography website, or that Newsvine is a news website.

If that is your bone of contention, you can stop responding because I have never, and will never, contest that notion. I can agree with you on that aspect, and *still* say that they sat down and wanted to come up with a way meld a social-concept with a photography-centric concept.

The first thing you said is that I wanted Newsvine to be "more like" Myspace. That *also* is not true. I've never said that, ever. Again, I know the difference between the two, I know the aims are different, and my view is that the difference is what you see *after* the word "social" when describing the sites:

Myspace is *primarily* a social-network.

Flickr is a social-photography site.

Newsvine is a social-news site.

All three share some very common themes amongst social sites, aspects that you can hem and haw about all you like (or contest the relative importance of) but which -- by their very existence -- mean that they are undeniably social-oriented. Those features are there to facilitate the social aspect of the network or the photography, or the news.

99% of the content in your last comment is -- well, i don't know. I almost suspect that you are bombarding with information rather than making any real sense, as though you want to drown your comment in content, in order to make it seem somehow relevant or useful. I see that a lot in my line of work.

So, the only thing that I've drawn *from* all of that content, is that newsvine.com is listed under a heading of "social-bookmarking" which would seem to bolster my point, and take away from yours.

(FWIW, I don't believe that Newsvine is "only" a social-bookmarking site, for a variety of reasons, but primarily because we create content here, as well. Again, I prefer the term social-news.)

Either we can be a news and commentary site OR we can be a social networking site; each precludes the use as the other.

Why? You keep asserting things without providing anything more than a bunch of flippity-flap. I've stated my case very clearly, I've pointed to features that *clearly* equate to a social concept, and you simply respond with statements of fact that aren't supported by anything other than your own power of assertion.

Which means that we're at an impasse, and the only clarification can come from people who actually own and operate the site, those who created it, and presumably have the final say on the point.

I guess those of us who watch the Superbowl for the commercials are antisocial?

of:

Seriously. Exactly the opposite. You miss the point of a National Football League Championship game, but you do experience--and I presume enjoy--the attendant social aspects.

You miss the point of a National Football League Championship game, but you do experience--and I presume enjoy--the attendant social aspects.

That's the thing, though: Football is football, and the SuperBowl is a football themed event, based on the game of football.

However, my superbowl party *requires* the superbowl, yes, and is football themed, yes, but the point of my party is to have a good time watching the game, yucking it up with my friends, rooting for our teams, debating about the quality of the commercials, etc. In almost all cases, it's a social event that goes beyond *just* the game, and incorporates the camaraderie. Hell, for some people, the football isn't even all that vital a component, even though they're at a football themed party.

You miss the point of a National Football League Championship game

I'm not actually much of a sports fanatic, but isn't the *game* itself, the championship win/loss, only the point for the teams actually playing the game? Isn't the point for everyone else all of the above stuff?

Brian:

I thought I told you I was signing off?

I'm not actually much of a sports fanatic, but isn't the *game* itself, the championship win/loss, only the point for the teams actually playing the game? Isn't the point for everyone else all of the above stuff?

But to answer your question, it depends on whether you're a playah or a spectator. Are you in the game or watching it?

Wow, step away for a few days and suddenly there's conversation.

I have (of course) a few short thoughts:

Robert: if the driving factor for your participation on Newsvine is pageviews, have at it. If you're not interested in the social scene, fine. Nobody disputes that the outside world (consisting of billions of people) provides more traffic than the inside world (consisting of a couple of thousand). That's axiomatic.

Nevertheless, the purpose of this discussion is to figure out how we would change groups. I happen to feel that there are two things that should happen - two directions for growth, which are not mutually exclusive:

1) Provide mechanisms for people to create sub-communities here on Newsvine.
2) Provide tools to allow users to work together to create branded proprietary content using groups as the mechanism for creation and publication.

You're not interested in one? Fine, you can say that in a lot fewer words than you did. Now, why do you disagree with two? That would be an interesting conversation, from where I'm sitting.

Jack and Brian - interesting. To me, Flickr is first and foremost a place where I can go and get photographs. Similarly, to many people, newsvine is first and foremost a place where they can go and get news. But I've never gotten involved in the community/social aspects of Flickr, while I've been intimately involved in the social aspects of Newsvine for years.

What this tells me is this: different sites can mean different things to different people, and a lot of that comes down to in-group/out-group dynamics. If you don't "get" the social aspects of newsvine, then it's just a news site. That's not wrong, it's just your experience - and those of us that do get the social aspects have a hard time understanding how and why others can come in and declare that "This is a news site, not a community site!"

It's like to me, Flickr is a photo site, not a community site. But the difference I guess is that I recognize that I simply am lacking a particular experience and that it's within my ability to have that experience should I choose to.

The upshot is that groups are a tool that can be useful both on the in-group (community site) end and on the out-group (news source) end. I'm simply trying to start a discussion about how we can change groups to better facilitate both of those agendas. I find it mildly amusing that I'm catching a lot of fire on both sides of the fence. ;)

Jack and Brian - interesting. To me, Flickr is first and foremost a place where I can go and get photographs.

I guess my thinking, just to sum up, is that I can go to a bar and only order water and soda. It would still be a bar, though. Yet, if *everyone* started only ordering water and soda, the bar would suffer, and it would become a pretty lame bar.

Now, substitute Newsvine or Flickr into the analogy.

I find it mildly amusing that I'm catching a lot of fire on both sides of the fence. ;)

Amusing, but not surprising?

When you've been under as much fire as I have it stops surprising you. ;)

And yeah, I agree with you - there's nothing wrong with ordering water at a bar, but it is a little silly if the bartender says "OK guys, what kind of scotch should I stock?" and as many of the regulars start discussing it you get a few water-drinking passersby who drown out the conversation shouting "God, this is a water bar, what's wrong with you people?!"

(This has been another metaphor beat to death by Bilokonsky Enterprises)

Instead of making Newsvine exactly what we want, wouldn't it just be better to allow just enough options for each member to use the site in the way they want?

It's always going to be a "News" site with discussion arranged around news and opinions but it's nice to be able to take a break. Even newspapers and TV news have a lighter side. Actually mostly anymore...

Ombra: I'm with you, that's my whole desire here.

Instead of making Newsvine exactly what we want, wouldn't it just be better to allow just enough options for each member to use the site in the way they want?

Well, when we're talking about groups, I think that's fine, along a very fine line.

I still say it's easy for us to say "let's make it so I can have whatever experience I want" but I don't think that's a great option for Newsvine. I think they have to be very careful to have a core, consistent experience while providing just enough customization to keep people happy.

I'm not against the idea of providing customization, I'm against the idea of fracturing too much of the Newsvine experience and making too many completely independent insular communities. It's an ease-of-use thing, and a functional issue.

Guess I guestion why we need "private" groups. (?)

Because, some ideologues need a private forum for planning and executing their nefarious group-think / block-voting schemes.

;)

Also, it helps for organization - I have a private group for the Admins of the various community groups. We used it to discuss policies before we implemented them, to vote, to make decisions etc. There's no reason for that stuff to be public.

It's just more organizational stuff.

That's true - but everything you just mentioned should be a feature of existing groups -- perhaps as part of a v2 of groups, cough, ahem -- not a reason to create an entirely new group.

#1.51

Thanks for your answers guys, much appreciated. However, (I've only been here a few months remember) my limited experience with "private" groups was that emails were sent to the members to plot their strategies. That was something new to me I guess, so many emails instructing the members. Well, anyway....

Thanks again for your answers.

Groups are for all the little pseudo-intellectual fetishes (hobbies / interests) that we all have; from stitchery, cooking, hunting, fishing, etc. People want news that is NOt of "gemneral interest" as well as the general interest main page stuff.

Car guys want to read and talk car stuff; sports guys want to read and talk sports stuff, Working women, soccer moms, travel and more; people have interests that are better served in a group than the main body.

That is what groups are for.

And, no; for the life of me I do not understand why newsvine would need "private" groups; all groups should be open to everyone.

That one does seem counter to the purpose of Newsvine or any news site. Hmmmmmmmmmm................................

Phew, glad my default thread idea caught hold. That will be a complete game-changer.

We are going to allow styling of the group and column pages. BUT any of you who know how Mike D's design snobbery goes will find it no surprise that there will be certain limits with regard to the degree to which a user will be able to uglify their pages.

Give me blink tags or give me death! ;)

Sounds like all great ideas thus far! :) I have noticed that the "custom branding" feature just like the one's on the beta columns have popped up in my Groups when I click members so I was able to add a custom banner to the title. Is there going to be any progress updates in the Newsvine Beta group anytime soon?

Also.. there needs to be a way to "cancel" a group request. Some groups the Owner leaves dodge and then it sits in "pending" status for months on end....

SR hit a sore spot. There should be a way to cancel request for groups when they sit there forever. I like all the new ideas and they will improve the group I moderate. I would like to see some sort of way to interact in groups. Ideally, it would be great if we could post photos to another author's article (with their permission, of course). Our group is planning a virtual Halloween party and we will have to go off Newsvine to do it. We would enjoy some sort of IM, too. We created a chat room on another site, but it would be great if we could have a group chat room on Newsvine. The email plan will be a big plus for us as right now, we do our membership voting via email, and it is a pain to do it off the site.

Good work, Calvin, and thanks for trying so hard to improve the site. Many of us do appreciate your efforts.

#1.61: "Good work, Calvin, and thanks for trying so hard to improve the site. Many of us do appreciate your efforts."

Yes. What Penni said.

Or a way to adopt them. However, there definitely are some groups that need to go.

Agreed. Along those lines, a way to withdraw an ignored or rejected application to a group so they don't linger on the group page indefinitely. (I know none of you has that problem!) LOL

ElliePhat...I have a number of "pending" group applications. LOL. I was told to go back throught the group tab at the top of my column and pull up the group, see who's group it is then send them an email through the contact author, in hopes they're still with the Vine....I haven't gotten all of this done as yet. But if the group owner is no longer available maybe they have a "co-"moderator or something....just not sure how to track them down...unless one of the group members would know. But it would be so much nicer to just be able to cancel the application after a certain amount of time.

Yes, Diana. Some of my pending groups were time sensitive (election 2008). I'd like those to just go away, but they linger in my pending groups.... But, it's a good idea on the other ones. I'll give it a try. Thanks.

That is a much better way to go. On Yahoo dead groups (where the owner left yahoo or was involuntarily removed) remain forever; worse they generate monthly messages that can't be gotten rid of

which reminds me - no automatically generated group messages like monthly reminders, etc. - see above. Any group mailing should be generated ad hoc by a real person only

There are other social networking sites where groups continue on without an "owner" and there is a way for new people to volunteer to take over the group (although usually what they find is that there never was much use for the group so most of the people still in it are not active)

Some way to do away with 'dead' groups!

Maybe have a certain time limit for minimum growth. For example, if a group still only has one member after three months, it self destructs. Or perhaps if there has been no additional comments, clippings, postings, etc. for, say, sixth months it does the same.

Tyler @ #2.5

Should I make an article where you folks can just drop links and I'll reassign ownership to someone who's cool with it?

Yeh....or give us a "reject" button like with the "friends".

. If you're pending to a group where the owner's MIA, you can ping me. Should I make an article where you folks can just drop links and I'll reassign ownership to someone who's cool with it?

I like that. There are some groups that need someone to adopt them. Even if only to disband them!

Assignable ownership of groups. Vas handed ownership of Examples of the Justice System Gone Awry to me, but he continues to get notifications about pending memberships, while I get none. the ownership only seems to be nominal, not actual. We need to be able to reassign ownership easily so that, if desired, an owner can pass ownership on to another group member.

In the same vein, a method for changing a group name. The aforementioned Examples of the Justice System Gone Awry was given a name not selected by the group membership, and is probably the ungainliest, ugliest name amongst all the groups. I'd change it if I could. there should be a process for requesting name changes or for accomplishing name changes without Newsvine staff intervention.

There are, it seems to me, two issues here - users who have left, causing problems for all the groups they previously led - and groups which are just plain outdated.

For the future i'd suggest we have more than one owner for each group (co-owner, co-admin) so that we can avoid the problem of all the groups where people can't join because the admin/owner is mia.. or, barring that, a way to do a transfer of power?

Much easier. If you're pending to a group where the owner's MIA, you can ping me. Should I make an article where you folks can just drop links and I'll reassign ownership to someone who's cool with it?

Yes and I'll offer to take over ownership of some groups like the media ones.

At that place can I also give you a list of groups which can be retired since they are no longer timely, i.e. related to the elections or some weird dude writing about pumpkins?

Semi-related, can we make it more clear on the group page who the admin/owner IS? It's often impossible to tell so you end up with situations where you're emailing one person who is emailing two others to try to see who IS in charge so you can get a yay or nay on a group membership? Way too much work.

{"commentId":5858053,"authorDomain":"iarnuocon"} iarnuocon Assignable ownership of groups. Vas handed ownership of Examples of the Justice System Gone Awry to me, but he continues to get notifications about pending memberships, while I get none. the ownership only seems to be nominal, not actual. We need to be able to reassign ownership easily so that, if desired, an owner can pass ownership on to another group member. {"commentId":5858053,"threadId":"522947","contentId":"2524747","authorDomain":"iarnuocon"} 4

!
#2.10 - Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:58 PM EDT

What I said. Stevehoue set up a group for me, Scott's Writing Assignments, which was brilliant but I only think to check on pending membership every so often because while I think I have ownership hr still had admin power. Or he's just doing some reverse blackmail thing that only people under 30 are able to understand.

{"commentId":5858053,"authorDomain":"iarnuocon"} iarnuocon Assignable ownership of groups. Vas handed ownership of Examples of the Justice System Gone Awry to me, but he continues to get notifications about pending memberships, while I get none. the ownership only seems to be nominal, not actual. We need to be able to reassign ownership easily so that, if desired, an owner can pass ownership on to another group member. {"commentId":5858053,"threadId":"522947","contentId":"2524747","authorDomain":"iarnuocon"} 4 I
! #2.10 - Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:58 PM EDT

I'd also be interested in merging some groups. We no longer need the 2 or 3 Michael Moore/sicko-related groups but I hesitate to just delete the one I started without knowing what it'd do to material previously assigned to it. If there were a way to just merge the groups - assuming the owners are agreeable - i'd go for that.

The current alternative would be emails between the owners, some wheeling and dealing, an article explaining what's going on to the users - way to much work for something not that big a deal. Thus my impulse to just delete the group.

Scott,

What I've done with the Gates of Eden group is ask another member to volunteer to be an administrator in the event I leave Newsvine, basing my approach upon the same philosophy used in business human resources succession plans. (Thankfully, someone in the group volunteered.)

At this point I would not begin to consider to create any additional groups, as an owner, since it would be more than I could handle for the amount of revenue Newsvine membership draws for me.

That said: under the current standards of Newsvine membership, I don't think MSNBC could pay me enough as it stands now (that is: fractions on pennies) to manage additional groups of thousands of members without additional paid staff support; or without making me a well-paid employee of MSNBC with all the amenities and benefits of being gainfully employed by MSNBC.

(Apologies to any mispellings, the spellcheck appears to be acting up with an"Error Response" message box...like I said, I don't think MSNBC can afford to hire me.)

I also have a lot of pending requests that have been ignored since I joined the Vine.

I would definitely volunteer to run any political groups that need a new owner - particularly liberal or neutral ones.

That said, I think that there must be a reasonable attempt made to contact the original owner of the group before just taking their group away. Try to rehab them first, so to speak.

Brian Ford, says this, in part:

'The best example I can give of this is Newsvine taking away the ability to seed MSNBC articles -- arguably the best way to earn page views -- from those few who were doing so as responsibly as possible. If the goal were merely to bring some viewers in, let them read and earn page views, why take that away? That was a formula for success, under that strategy...'

Sorry Brian, but this was a formula for FAILURE at Newsvine, and it was definitely hurting the site. At one point during this scenario, 22-25% of all Newsvine traffic was going to a maximum of five users. I did an article on this situation, a meta-only in-depth report, but I deleted it after Newsvine stopped the MSNBC seeding thing. Some of these folks didn't even moderate their pages at Newsvine.

A few people figured out a cute way to game the system a bit. Revenue to the vast majority of users was down, while a few people lined their pockets at the expense of the site as a whole. They were merely conduits for articles that already BELONGED to Newsvine.

In a cartoon for the article, I showed an MSNBC staffer talking to a secretary while they check out a computer screen. He says:

'Let me get this straight...we're paying for our OWN articles to be seeded to our OWN discussion site?'

The secretary shrugs and says, 'Yep...'

Mike Davidson (CEO) commented to one of these MSNBC seeders, after this seeder protested the upcoming end of the MSNBC gravy train: 'You have lost all credibility with me at Newsvine...'

So I guess Mike wasn't happy with the situation, either.

As far as the groups thing, I'm in favor of a new V-2 version as long as the result doesn't create too much havoc or load down the servers too much.

Mike Davidson (CEO) commented to one of these MSNBC seeders, after this seeder protested the upcoming end of the MSNBC gravy train: 'You have lost all credibility with me at Newsvine...'

You know, because I attend to the social aspects of this website, because the community has been something I've focused on, I happen to know that you don't know the context of *why* Mike D. said that, nor the long history that preceded his having said that, and it wasn't simply due to the MSNBC issue. You're misrepresenting the quotation you've posted, and left out a lot of fairly important context, so you can't really use it to in the way you've used it to make the point you want to make.

They made a change, but those few users who were profiting from a bad system weren't punished in any way, or looked down upon by Mike or Calvin simply for exploiting a flawed system.

Also, Mike D. (in the same article you quote) seems to call your stats into question anyway.

Brian Ford says in part:

'I happen to know that you don't know the context of *why* Mike D. said that, nor the long history that preceded his having said that, and it wasn't simply due to the MSNBC issue...'

Of course I do. It was on the article I wrote about the MSNBC seeding problem.

Look, we probably shouldn't take this any further, for two reasons. First, this thread isn't about the MSNBC seed thing, and two posts on it is probably too many. Second, it's no longer an issue because Newsvine changed policy. So it's kind of moot. If you want to believe that the previous situation was good for NV, fine. I don't. And I don't have a problem if you supported that policy when it was active.

Oh, good call.

On top of that, there's an obnoxious bug where if I invite someone to my group and they hit "join group" at roughly the same time, they can't accept my invitation and I can't accept their attempt to join. The upshot is that everyone has to wait a few days while the cache clears itself out, and that's a pain.

I've been waiting months to join groups... and I just end up searching for their story line through friends.

Another thing I noticed is that I can post a article that I have written, and hardly ever see it on the Newsvine Page, yet others have a seeded article with no comments that stay up for all day? Am doing something wrong?

I would like to start a Funny Story Group, where you can speak about any topic, just as long as it is drop down hilarious.

A way to cancel a "join group" request.

This is one that is sorely needed!

Oops, sorry hippiechick...brilliant minds...

Sixth'd. I've had an "invalid user" pending to Sexy Boys for a while now. That beseeching green head is starting to creep me out.

blockquote> Sixth'd. I've had an "invalid user" pending to Sexy Boys for a while now. That beseeching green head is starting to creep me out.

so... that "beseeching green head" is not a sexy boy?

Oh and I seventh the cancel pending requests.

<blockquote>so... that "beseeching green head" is not a sexy boy? </blockquote>

Shadows are sexy. Greenows are not.

Definitely agreed. The ability to delete articles is something that must be earned.

I also don't think the Patron level is needed. Anyone who reads the group page (assuming the group is public) would be technically a patron - they can read and watchlist the group. And if it's a private group that someone wants to join badly enough to request membership, then they should automatically have contributor privileges.

Once the person's articles/seeds have been "activated" x-number of times, then that user earns the privilege of posting more freely.

I like the idea of a mini-greenhouse. A "seedling box" if you will. (God, I've been away for so long, does that mean something else now?)

I think it would need to be managed by a human. There are just some people who spam all content to every group they belong to. It may be interesting content, but a tech article really doesn't belong in a group on food.

Red Wolf, I think group owners can currently boot abusive users from groups. I don't think anyone is promoting automation here, either. Group mods and owners would do the "activating".

...that actually seems like a lot of overhead for one user. I sure as @!$%# don't read everything in the groups I own. Maybe we could model it after the Greenhouse--once you've had n popular contributions in the group your privileges automatically increase.

Owners can currently boot users if they want. I am personally not interested in a "greenhouse" for group members. I usually just contact a user directly if I think there is a problem.

I like the idea, Lauhal, but if the new user in question is out of the greenhouse already, then presumably they shouldn't be spamming (groups or otherwise).

I wish that were always true, but we find people with several branches and dozens of self-seeds. There are also people who want to join groups who have no seeds, articles or comments. Why they want to join groups is beyond me.

Also, there are some savvy users out there who know how to manipulate the system. I've come across brand new users who've clipped several articles, sent out a bunch of friend requests, joined groups...all in a matter of a day or two. Shoot, Red & I get friend invites from spammers all the time. When we check them out, they're obviously spamming, but have dozens of friends (people who are regular users). I still think there are plenty of spammers who make it out of the Greenhouse. I guess in the greater scheme of things, it isn't a huge number...but it's annoying. I was just thinking of an additional layer or protection. ;)

people who are regular users

Do they "have friends" or is it just the same old problem of "if I request you to be my friend, you show up as my friend until you deny my request, whether you *approve my request* or not."

?

Because, my friend requests list builds up over time, and I suspect some people *never* check it. So, for all those people, they are probably "listed" as friends for some of these spammers you talk about.

I thought they fixed that. I know it used to show groups that way, but now it doesn't until the person is actually accepted. I guess part of my point is that they get their connectedness branch awfully fast.

I can't help it that some people get me...and you don't. ;)

Yikes. When that happens...please send an abuse report via the "Report Bug" feature. Be sure to click the (!) button. We also have a group that reports spam. If you join, you have the ability to clip the offending articles. :)

I second this. I would love the ability to highlight a particular article or seed, have it as the first one for a few days.

Thks lauhal

You have been most helpful (~:

I'll third that. :)

:)

Hey K! Cool, I will remind her to get in touch with you. She hasn't had her head on straight since we moved, it was a crazy summer/fall but it's about time to start getting organized again. ;)

She did try last year... but I check my webmail so rarely that I got back to her too late. It was all about you though :)

Hey, thanks for the mails - I just wrote back to your yahoo address, thanks for thinking of me!

Also, a way to drive to the homes of users who spam-post everything to all of their groups and hit them in the kneecaps with baseball bats. ^^

I have a coworker working on an electric shock keyboard to try and accomplish the same thing. Might be cheaper in the long run, but not nearly as satisfying.

If accompanied by web cam, it would at least be interesting, but I know for me, it would be addicting zapping people.

On the group page a way for users to flag clipped articles as 'not relevant to group' so that the group community can vote an article off of the group page without a group admin being needed.

As an admin, I do not want anyone but myself or someone I designate as an admin to have the power to delete content - not even a group of someones. But I like the general idea. Instead of having the report feature delete the article, it could trigger an email to the owner & admins telling them how many times the article has been reported and to review the article submission. That way there's an intermediary step before content is removed.

I think if content can't be removed without the admin then it should not be addable without the admin.

I just loved it because I keep a baseball bat beside my desk at work.

And it would be a useful feature for groups to autopilot after their captain has gone the way of the dodo.

@#11.1 Lmao!

Mykola Bilokonsky,

You are describbing here the basic architecture of a number of existing souce control tools that allocate protected workspace to individuals as subsets of a main project that is consolidated before publishing, under a specific version number (versionning would be irrelevant here). Once the project reaches its production shape, it is then "pinned"(no more changes) and released. Such tools exist. I could not tell you how convenient they would be for your specific circumstance.

Yeah, I'm sure there are a million templates across the web to choose from - and users are certainly free to collaborate outside of newsvine on the creation of content, then create a dummy account and agree to split the earnings and publish their collaborative work under that dummy account.

That's a lot of work, though, and of questionable legality given the COH and UA.

It would really serve the community well, I think, if Newsvine would just turn groups into collaborative publishing platforms rather than glorified tags. That's just my opinion, though.

The No Asshats Group would love this feature. I would love this feature. I think it would vastly expand use of the Vine and organize comments much better.

I think if I had to pick one of the various features I've proposed here, this would be it. It would change the game and bring back all of the old Talent that has since fled for greener pastures.

Yep, this would definitely be good for some of the more active discussion-centric groups.

To expand upon it a bit, perhaps a hierarchical focus structure would work even better: if your #1 choice for group discussion is not present on an article/seed, look for your #2 choice, then #3, etc. until you find a group discussion that's actually activated on your article/seed of interest.

I really like this suggestion. Good one, Myk.

I like the idea of this suggestion. There are the group discussion tabs currently, but almost no one seems to use them. It seems to me that this idea is predicated on getting people to actually use those tabs.

The Troll Watch Group I just started would love this feature as well.

Myk:

Damn straight. I'd be a wealthy man with all the pageviews the Refugees' page generated, but I'd be like a bankrupt Donald Trump to your Bill Gates with all the pageviews NV Community generated.

But seriously. If there's a banner ad on the page and the page has a user-owner, both of which are the case with the group pages, there's no reason it shouldn't fall under the same system as the user-column pages.

Also, think of the "business" potential.

I can publish content from writers looking for larger exposure for their work in exchange for a cut of that particular article's earnings. It could be something so simple as article-by-article, without working out a membership agreement. Sort of like a real magazine (gasp) paying freelance authors for content in exchange for exposure but without any lasting commitment either way.

Myk:

Sort of like a real magazine (gasp)

So you say literally the day after I finally gave up on the proto-magazine I tried to start over a year ago.

Somehow I didn't know about your project, Jack - but that's exactly what I've been pushing for Groups to be since, like, 2006. I want groups to be platforms within the newsvine medium - I am not interested in Newsvine as Platform, exactly because of what happened to that platform.

Myk:

I made the mistake of trying to start small.

Silly Jack, small scale means small failure.

(All of my failures are spectacular! ;))

Tricuspidata was a good project that sort of just lost it's steam I think. When you first started it, Jack it was quite exciting.

I want a group admin module that I can pop onto my front page.

I personally wouldn't want this on the front page, so maybe give us the option to have the module on the front page, or on the Groups page (which is where I'd prefer it).

How about customizing the 'Fonts' too?

Yep, not a fan of this on the whole. As Hobson says, Newsvine should ape neither Ning nor MySpace.

As for fonts, I can be down with that, provided Comic Sans is not an option. :-P

Man. I am still adjusting to the fact that groups and other feature pages have black backgrounds. One of my favourite things about Newsvine is its uniformity--I think it lends an air of authenticity to our opinions. :)

Re: fonts choices...serif and sans is sufficient. Maybe excessive. Custom modules would be useful and easy to integrate (visually). Caveats, caveats. I don't know whether I should vote for this idea box or not.

Vote for it. I'll make it worth your while. ;)

Man. I am still adjusting to the fact that groups and other feature pages have black backgrounds.

I'll vote for changing Group backgrounds to wide green-and-black bias stripes (or green-and-black paisley).

One of my favourite things about Newsvine is its uniformity--I think it lends an air of authenticity to our opinions. :)

Geniuses do buy green cars. ;-)

As for branding, I've thought about ita bit more, and while I'm not a fan of full color/font customization, I think the ability to expand the avatar-esque logo to a fully customizable full-width banner would help with branding, and would limit possible tackiness to but a limited swath of the Group page.

That's what I"m saying. I don't wanna see anyone Myspace their group - but I do want some branding options and I do want additional content modules for sticky posts, images, etc. What we have simply isn't enough.

(...green-and-black paisley).

Oh Drool.

Vote for it. I'll make it worth your while. ;)

Like, sexually? This is Newsvine, Myk. Keep it in the bedroom. Jeez. ;P

Yes, I am staunchly anti-MySpace as well. (Did you know they would not facilitate my efforts to delete my account? Bastards.) Additional content is one very good idea, but modifying design elements is another entirely. Maintaining a neutral colour scheme (or a few limited options?) will make your branding ideas (also good) easier on the eyes.

This is Newsvine, Myk. Keep it in the bedroom. Jeez. ;P

You mean: This is Newsvine, not Vinemeet. Keep it in the bedroom. Jeez. ;P

?

* narrows eyes at you, Brian *

Hey, we were all there.

And, uh, I never said anything about sexual activity - though your proclivities are well known in some circles and I suppose I should have been more specific. I meant, I'll buy you a drink at Adobe Night later! ;)

* narrows eyes at you, Brian *

... *sultrily*

Lulz. I missed Newsvine. This is a much more tolerable amusing way to communicate with Myk in cyberspace. :)

... *sultrily*

I thought it felt a bit sexier in here...

The ability to get some kind of rss feed for the group talk module might help keep the conversation trackers from expanding exponentially.

And maybe fix the comment tracker first. I hate having to refresh the page a few times to get it to load properly. :-P

I think the admin or moderator should have the option to add an AP-like Top Story feed to the group page based on tags or subjects that pertain to that group.

That way if group members haven't actively seeded any thing to the group for awhile there'll be some sort of current content there for members to comment on.

I think this would improve traffic to a variety of the less active groups that still have merit.

That's a really good idea.

Thanks Myk

It'd be like little mini subject specific NVs

A way to post a permanently visible set of rules.

I absolutely must have this feature. That's been one of the biggest obstacles towards maintaining a group's focus.

In addition, I'd like a way to send out an email to everyone in a group, to announce a new feature, or to reinforce an existing stipulation.

I agree with both of these. Particularly when you have specific criteria for posting articles. I spend too much time deleting ariticles and emailing the authors asking them to comply with the rules.

The email function would be very helpful too.

Auto-invite

I'd love to be able to invite my friends without having to go back and forth from my homepage to the groups page just to get the screen names of my friends. It would be nice to have my friends list be interactive with any group I own.

That would be a good feature...just click in the box next to the names and viola your invites are done in no time at all....

But also make him move to Seattle since part of that position will also entail the tending and care to of Milkdud ;-)

9? I count 10...

Creating a new account to up the vote to 10 doesn't actually count Myk ;-)

Besides, we all know that Calvin would hire me first, and I'm actually willing to relocate to Seattle ;-)

...ah but I have a theory that they'd be willing to pay extra to keep you out of Seattle, see... ;)

In fairness Jerry I've been advocating (agitating?) for most of these policies for years now. But yes: my vision has groups as quasi-autonomous publishing platforms within the larger newsvine context. Newsvine provides the branding and the readership, the groups provide exclusive and worthwhile content. Newsvine provides compensation in the form of earnings, the groups provide new markets for expansion.

I'd love to see the ability for groups to register their own domain names and have those serve as mirrors to the newsvine group url. I recognize that that could be tricky, though.

Myk, I was not denying or trying to oneup your originality. I was trying to point out that much of what is being said is "old hat" on Newsvine and has been suggested time and time again. I am still awaiting Groups to mature into what should and could have been a thriving journalistic and commercial community a long time ago. I realize Rome wasn't built in a day, but the Romans didn't have bull dozers or computers.

Ha, sorry if that sounded prickly, Jer - I know what you meant, and you're absolutely right. As far as I'm concerned you had this figured out years before the rest of us. And agree - I know this stuff takes time, but come on, guys, we've been asking for some of this stuff for YEARS. Enough with the slackin'! ;)

Sorry, Calvin, already taken care of. I got ill as soon as I realized V2 was not going to rocket me to fame with my very own Newsvine tabloid. I have a million stories just waiting. Have you heard the one about the......?